Time Out to Talk

Transcribed and edited from an online discussion, July 1, 2020 Steve

You mentioned that writing a book with two White people is hard. I wish that didn't have to be true.

Tonya

Writing a book about equity with people who are White—it's difficult! That's not a slight. It's somewhat like, as a woman, if I were writing with a man, but really talking about a woman's perspective, and there were somethings about it that were a little difficult. But I couldn't ask for a better team to work with.

So I can't help thinking about April Baker-Bell's book that just came out. You saw her at NCTE. She talks about linguistic justice, and says it just the way she wants to say it: "If y'all actually believe that using standard English would dismantle White supremacy, then you're not paying attention... Eric Garner was choked to death by a police officer while he was saying 'I cannot breathe.' Wouldn't you consider 'I cannot breathe' standard English and syntax?"

Katy

Something I was reading the past few weeks made that exact same point about writing by yourself, rather than in collaboration.

Tonya

A statement like Baker-Bell's—that's pretty forceful! That's really a strong statement that she could say however she wanted. And I know that a couple of times you've wanted to revise something I've written just because it was really intense, like April's statement, or was said as a negative, and to tell the truth, that's the way I wanted it. I admire April for her work!

But there are some things that, if I were writing by myself, I would not say in the same way as we might as a group. That makes sense, though. I don't know that you and Katy feel comfortable saying some of the things that I might put out there that might be really assertive or may not seem really collaborative. At the same time, you can't say everything the way I would say it, right? And there are some things that you could say to a particular audience that I can't say and get away with. So how does each of us manage that when you're writing something and you don't want your voice stifled?

Steve

Actually, when I worked with just one partner, whoever felt the strongest would "win." Because it was more important to get a book written than to agree perfectly on everything.

Tonya

But is that really what we want? When we write about some things, I think "winning" can be an appropriate approach, but maybe not in this case. We don't need a win. We need more dialogue, more conversation. In writing about equity and race, a lot of people tend to write by themselves, or they write with partners of their same ethnicity or race. Our being able to do it together is different, right!? When you two push back and ask, "Well, what are White people to do?" does that mean that nobody can write with anybody else who's different? My answer would be, "No." I just think we have to be able to have conversations and get through whatever those tough spots are, and think about how we want to say something that will be helpful for our audience collectively.

Katy

Although it's been hard, we've wrestled with questions of representation and voice: having an author who is Black and two who are White has meant we have had to pay very close attention to balance. What does it mean to have a second White author who was on the periphery of the project when it began—me!—come into the work in progress? I sure hope that we've worked those questions through, and I think—and hope—that as the quintessential "middle child," I've added to the process mindfully. But yes, it's challenging.

Steve

This does put me in mind of one passage in the manuscript where I was proposing that we tone down what you had said, Tonya. But if you felt strongly enough and said, "Steve, it's got to be said this way," I would say "OK," partly because what you said was true. You had charged that teachers aren't really seeing kids of Color for who they are. I was thinking that the teachers who will read the book might not be the ones with the problem. On the other hand, I know that when I read statements like that myself, I might think, "Well, I'm doing OK, but I don't blame the writer for saying that about other teachers." So I'm counting on both of you to speak up. Actually, Tina Curry once very rightly called me out for silencing her when I was being too insistent about something, so I know that I can be argumentative.

Tonya

Sometimes as a Black woman you have to fight to get a platform to be heard. Sometimes there's not the respect for your work, and it's constantly being looked at through other people's eyes and being evaluated. Our voice has meaning and is valuable. I think we actually get to share our thinking, and I don't feel like I'm working under any kind of silencing.

Katy

Here was my takeaway from what you said last week, Tonya. One piece of it that really resonated for me was that this is hard work. And we've tried to engage in it in honest and open ways, right?

Tonya

I think these conversations—I think they are important for our text, that we really need to get in and look at ways of being and have these kinds of conversations ourselves. Because the teachers we serve are going to have to do it for themselves and for the people in their buildings. And with their students. And you had best believe they'll have questions—"How can I have this conversation?" "This is really hard work!" "I'm Black, and I don't want to give up my voice in this space!" "Is it my responsibility to teach everybody about racial inequity?" Those are things that come up. You two read for yourselves. It's not that you need to understand everything in the world, but you don't come to the table with zero knowledge. You do some work, and you will see injustices in the world, and you're trying to figure it out. And we come to the table and we talk about it. But there are spaces where people come to the table asking people of Color just to tell them what to do. That's not fair. So I think it's important that we model these conversations.